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Category talk:Move
Archived Move discussions Previous topics can be found in the Move discussions archives. Move Discussions Jason Todd (Earth-3) to Owlman II (Earth-3) According to the notes, this is all based on the personal conclusions of an editor rather than anything explicitly revealed in the comics. The Paradox 01:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC) :Unless somebody object to this one soon, I'm gonna prep it for Move. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Jennie-Lynn Hayden (New Earth) to Jennifer-Lynn Hayden (New Earth) Ending Battle to Superman: The Ending Battle Buck Bonner (New Earth) to Bernard Bonner (New Earth) Central Power Battery to Green Lantern Central Power Battery It occurs to me that with the other Lantern Corps assembling, each will have its own Central Power Battery, three of which have also appeared. Therefore, this article would have to be moved and Central Power Battery be turned into a disambig. Where should we move this to? Green Lantern Central Power Battery? Oan Central Power Battery? -- SFH 05:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC) :Are they all called Central Power Batteries? The Paradox 04:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC) ::The current articles are named as such, including Qwardian Central Power Battery and Star Sapphire Central Power Battery. -- SFH 06:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC) :::I wouldn't go by the article name. What do the comics call them? 'Cause those are our source material, and whatever they are called in those is what we should be using. The Paradox 06:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC) :::True. -- SFH 06:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC) ::I believe the GLC battery is canonically referred to as the Central Power Battery of Oa. --Brian Kurtz 08:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC) :::Update: The Sinestros battery on Warworld was called a "Central Power Battery" by the Guardians in Green Lantern Vol 4 25 as they discuss the end of the war. At the very least, that's two, which might justify a page move. -- SFH 02:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC) I tend to agree. Let's give it a couple more days, since people don't seem to monitor this page much. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) If the Green Lantern's Central Power Battery is known officially as the Central Power Battery of Oa then why don't we just keep that certain title only on the templete were it is currently shown I think at least twice on the templete but for the title of the actual article page why don't we call that Green Lantern Central Power Battery? But what ever title is desided to be the final title the page at least should not be called Central Power Battery since there is a total of 8 Lantern Corps and they all have central power battery. But I do agree with SFH he makes a good point in suggesting turning the page into a disambig page that would make more sense for the title that is currenly shown. Rod12 :Okay, I'm ready to start writting articles on the Red and Blue Central Power Batteries pretty soon. Can we agree on a name and move it, so that I can have some precedence for naming convention and so forth? -- SFH 22:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC) ::Guys? Do we have an agreed upon name yet? Green Lantern Central Power Battery or Central Power Battery of Oa? -- SFH 19:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC) René Jacques Brande (Pre-Zero Hour) to Ren Daggle (Pre-Zero Hour) I have to disagree with moving this page. While he may have been born a Daggle, he changed his identity years before founding the Legion and was legally known as Brande. The Paradox 19:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC) :There are several pros. It would help solidify his ties to his son, Reep Daggle (Pre-Zero Hour). Also, it would distinguish his character origins more solidly from René Jacques Brande (Post-Zero Hour), who was an actual human, and was actually born with that name. I see where you're coming from. It irks me everytime I have to type Edward Nashton instead of Edward Nigma, but I think in this case there's enough reason to. He's also now gone back to his Durlan form, albeit in death. :Plus, I really hate having to copy-paste people's names to get the pronounciation correctly when I'm making appearances. And I find it best to just try and avoid that whenever possible. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 20:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC) ::Still waiting for more comments... The Paradox 04:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC) Closed - no move. The Paradox 07:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::I have to say, this one still bothers me. Could we get an outside opinion on this? Besides conventions, and the connection to his son, if only because it's a perfectly good way to not have to visit his article every single damn time he appears, just so you can copy-paste that stupid accent. If a third person looks at this and agrees that he should not be moved, then I'll drop it and accept it. I'd just like to have an actual decision on this, rather than a choice made through our lack of one. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 15:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::I seems as if your main reason for moving it is editorial convenience, not accuracy of source material. Plain and simple, he changed his name. If the naming conventions are to use "real" names, no matter how dubious their application (Aztar comes to mind), then we should follow conventions. We don't call Gerald Ford "Leslie Lynch King, Jr.," we don't call Bill Clinton "William Jefferson Blythe III" and we shouldn't call R.J. Brande "Ren Daggle." If I changed my name I shouldn't have to put up with people calling me by the old one simply because it's more convenient for them. Oh, wait, that's exactly what happened. The Paradox 18:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Although editorial convenience is my favorite reason, I have stated several others. On all relating pages, he will still be referred to as "R.J. Brande". As to the analogies, no, we don't call him William Blythe. However, if he called himself Bill Clinton, despite his children and the rest of his family calling themselves Blythe, and he also had an alternate universe counterpart who had in fact been born Bill Clinton because unlike our Bill Clinton, this one was not a shape-shifting alien, it would conceivably be justifiable to name his comic reference page that akin to every other page on the site, noting him as Bill Clinton everywhere else he appears. My reasoning stands. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 19:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Cyrus Gold (New Earth)/Gallery to Solomon Grundy/Gallery One of the messy consequences of the ever-changing naming conventions is the chaos it's brought to character galleries. Cyrus Gold (New Earth)/Gallery is a good case in point - of the 8 images, only three are from New Earth. Three different TV realities are also depicted. Lets just have the pagename reflect the reality of the gallery. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Impulse (Everyman Project) to Impulse (New Earth) I personally hate this one, but it is the Naming Conventions. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :He's a single appearance character. Can we just delete him, and add a footnote to the Impulse disambig? ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 18:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :: Seven months after the fact, but it appears the move hasn't happened yet . . . How about Impulse (Everyman Project) (New Earth)? Still conforms to the naming conventions without causing confusion with Bart Allen or Kent Shakespeare. -- Profzoom 21:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Ted Grant (New Earth) to Theodore Grant (New Earth) Somebody else tagged this without opening a discussion. I would like to know when his full name was revealed - I think changing it based on an assumption of his true name isn't good enough, given he has nearly 80 years of being Ted. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :I tagged it for moving because it's already written on the character page. I suppose in theory he could be Edward Grant or Edwin Grant (wikipedia:Ted). Or maybe a nickname is on his birth certificate. Whatever. Who originally marked him as Theodore? Were they just speculating? ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 18:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC) ::I dunno. I think someone was just taking a guess. I've been very conscious about good ole Ted Grant's name, and I'm always keeping an eye out for confirmation on Theodore or Edward. So far, I haven't found anything. --Brian Kurtz 18:23, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Damn. The DC Encyclopedia also lists him as Ted. Stupid lousy secret identities. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 18:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::So, Ted it is? If so, does anyone else think we could then use him as a example of a Quality Assessment character entry? :::Roygbiv666 17:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC) Richard Starr (Earth-One) to Richard Starr (New Earth) Another article tagged without a corresponding discussion. I'd like to see the article updated to include reference to his New Earth existence before this one is moved. The Paradox 17:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :He has a Who's Who confirmation, a Starman appearance and a handful of appearances in Trinity... that I know of. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 18:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Zero Girl Vol 2‎ to Zero Girl: Full Circle Vol 1 The individual issues are listed as Full Circle, the cover says Full Circle, without checking GCBD or comics.org I'd be willing to guess that this is published as Zero Girl: Full Circle. There's no reason I can think of why it shouldn't be named such here. The Paradox 01:33, 24 December 2008 (UTC) ::Go for it. That was made in another time. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 03:20, 24 December 2008 (UTC) Adam Strange's Jet Pack to Rannian Jet Pack Perhaps this should be moved so as to not be so restrictive. Alanna Strange, Champ Hazard and other Rannians have also used these. --Brian Kurtz 16:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC) :Seconded. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 16:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC) :::Good Lord, you responded fast! You're like the freakin' Barry Allen of keystrokes! --Brian Kurtz 16:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC) Wendy and Marvin Teen Titans Vol 3 66 reveals that Wendy and Marvin are the children of the Calculator. Reason would assume that the would share his surname, Kuttler. However, we might want to wait until the story develops further, to see if they actually do share his last name. If nothing comes of it (which wouldn't surprise me considering the current quality of that title), then I say we move 'em anyway because single name characters suck. Suggested move: * Wendy (New Earth) to Wendy Kuttler (New Earth) * Marvin (New Earth) to Marvin Kuttler (New Earth) --Brian Kurtz 19:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC) :I believe that that the Wendy/Calculator plot is actually going to be adressed during Oracle's Battle for the Cowl mini, but I would also agree on waiting to see if they're his legitimate kids first and thus legally share his last name. -- SFH 19:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC) ::Is anybody picking up the Calculator Faces spotlight this week in BoP? That might be helpful. Yeah, though, reasonable assumption. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 20:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC) :So, recent Teen Titans Annual says... Wendy White? ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 01:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Sergeant Steel (New Earth) Provided someone can provide a citation as to his real name (Sargent Steel), then let's do it. Roygbiv666 23:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC) Super Young Team (New Earth) I disagree that this article needs to be moved. The tag cites the Naming Conventions page. Let's have a look at what I presume is the expected relevant section: :Character Entries. Character entries should be listed by the real name and earth-designation of the character if possible. (We don't appear to have any particular section on Teams). Looks to me like the Universe should be included. I see no persuasive reason that one rule should apply for individual characters and another for Teams (or locations for that matter). There was a JLA on Earth-One and a JLA on Earth-0/New Earth. Maybe we should be discussing the Naming Conventions before requesting moves. Of course, it is possible to have one article with multiple sections, one for each reality, but one could argue the opposite as above. Is there a shortage of server space I don't know about? Thoughts? Roygbiv666 02:23, 11 February 2009 (UTC) ::The move template automatically cites our hopelessly outdated naming conventions, not the suggestion itself. Teams, just like locations, races and items, provide general information on a broader, more conceptual subject than an individual character tied logically to their own birth reality. In special circumstances where information is specifically different between realities, such as in the case of the Justice League of America (only arguably valid anyway, and probably still unnecessary), it is justifiable. However, spray-painting a reality designation on every single article in some misguided attempt to be overly specific is not helpful, it is unnecessary, confusing to readers, and generates more work every time you want to reference a group that only appears in mainstream continuity anyway. It's the same reason that we have articles like Blüdhaven and not Blüdhaven (New Earth), or Green Arrow's Chili and not Green Arrow's Chili (New Earth). If it becomes apparent that we need to divide up the Super Young Team into multiple articles, because some writer coincidentally decides to start two other new teams using the exact same name but with no actual connection or relation (sarcastically hypothetical), then I will support the change. Until then, there are several reasons why this unnecessary reality bukkake spraying realities everywhere where they don't need to be is inconvenient, but I fail to see any actual benefits. I can only assume that the reason we have this system implemented at all anywhere is just leftover paranoia from 52 Week 52. Otherwise, while we're at it, wouldn't it be more "accurate" to divide, say, the Humans article into Humans (Earth-Two), Humans (Earth-One), Humans (Earth-5), etc.? It's a slightly blurry line, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least attempt to draw it somewhere. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 03:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Yes, I realize it's part of a template, I have been here for a while, Billy. I don't see how adding 10 characters ("(New Earth)") to an entry is a big deal. Although it's exceedingly unlikely that there would be other versions of this team, as a general principle, it's not that outre. Two perspectives spring to mind: # wikipedia:Joseph Bazalgette designed the London combined sewer system in the late 1800s. When planning the network he took the most dense population, gave every person the most generous allowance of sewage production and came up with a diameter of pipe needed. He then said 'Well, we're only going to do this once and there's always the unforeseen.' and doubled the diameter to be used. (Doubling the diameter increases the capacity by four times.) Every Londoner should be grateful for this foresight as the unforeseen was the tower block. If he had used his original, smaller pipe diameter the sewer would have overflowed in the 1960s. As it is they are still in use to this day. # The Marvel Universe obviously has many more than 52 alternative realities, so this next bit is perhaps tenuous. However, the MDP has about twice as many articles as this one. They have already gone through most of the challenges that we have and come up with some solutions (the inane "Comics" namespace aside). I would choose to learn from their experiences and have Universes for Teams. Teams (and items, and locations) could readily get ridiculous with Universe designations, however based on the foregoing, I think it might not be a bad idea to start now in anticipation of multiple entries in the future. Roygbiv666 00:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC) Batman: A Death in the Family So you guys want to move Batman: A Death in the Family (Collections) Vol 1 1 to Batman: A Death in the Family, but there's a bunch of content in both pages. Shouldn't that just be a merge? — Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 04:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC) ::Yeah, that's a merge. Ignore that. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 04:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC) The Red Circle Vol 1 Yeah, I wasn't sure about "The" at the front, but have seen it on other titles. Should it be moved? : 01:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC) ::We tend to use it only where it's absolutely necessary. It makes templating a lot easier, as well as search functions. In this case, it's not really essential to the title. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 16:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC) Ultra-Humanite Well, it looks like they retooled this guy's origin. As per Power Girl Vol 2 2 he now has the real name of Gerard Shugel. His timeline has been compressed so that he became the UH in the modern era, not the 1940s. And it appears as if he has only ever used the white monkey body, though this is just speculation. I don't mind tackling the changes; just wanted to give everybody a head's up. --Brian Kurtz 13:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC) :Well, the UH was originally a Golden Age Superman villain, right? So, by rights we either need some Pre/Post Crisis explanation thing, or a UH (Earth-Two) entry. I'd prefer copying the current UH data into a Ultra-Humanite (Earth-Two) entry, deleting any Post Crisis material, then moving the current entry to Gerard Shugel (New Earth) with all the Earth-Two data deleted. Discuss. : 13:20, 23 June 2009 (UTC) ::I was thinking of something along those same lines. --Brian Kurtz 15:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC) Not necessary, When he was a member of the Time Stealers. Booster Gold still remembered his other forms. Together with Per Degaton and Despero. When they fought in an altered Timeline because Ted Kord didn't die, but Ted got back into time to die again , resetting the time. everbody in the altered timeline was pulled to the current one, somewhere. Not reading the Power girl comic but my guise is that this Ultra-Humanite is the someone his crimes have yet come to pass (or worse his time travelling experience has him changed in a chakter of its --Ouroborosi 17:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC) ::Wait, is this some damn time-travel thing where from UH's perspective his first body is the gorilla, and he later takes Delores Winters in the past, but in his "future"? Time travel sucks. Wasn't this alluded to in Justice League of America Vol 2 8? :: 00:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC) :::I haven't read that issue mind you, but looking as the Booster Gold Vol 2 hadn't been puplished yet, it could be more then likely With Delores Winters probably erased from time (the two mysterious people are probably Per Degaton and Despero). Well it explains now why The Ultra Humanite wants power girl as a host its orginal is probbaly dead and an other time --Ouroborosi 20:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Martha Kent (New Earth) to Martha Clark (New Earth) Naming conventions. Clark is Martha's maiden name. -- Profzoom 23:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Nora Allen (Earth-One) to Nora Thompson (Earth-One) Naming conventions (maiden name). Note that we haven't seen the New Earth (aka Post-Flash: Rebirth) Nora's maiden name yet, so I think it should stay where it is, rather than assuming it's Thompson as well. -- Profzoom 23:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Gregory Sanders (New Earth) to Gregory Sanders (Earth-Two) While I agree that most of the history should be moved to such an article, there definitely is a Gregory Sanders from/on New Earth as seen in the most recent version of 7 Soldiers and limited series "Vigilante: City Lights, Prairie Justice." So I don't think the page itself should be moved, just most of the content. --WolfordMnemsis 00:09, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :I don't think that this is a case where we need an actual move... at most, maybe a new page could be created and the appearances swiped? Personally though, as always, I am in favor of keeping information about a single character to one page if we can and explaining differences in the history text. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 01:59, October 22, 2009 (UTC) Tia Amparo (New Earth) to Amparo (New Earth) Shouldn't she be moved to just Amparo? The word "tia" is spanish for aunt. Unless its been said somewhere that this really is her first name, it should be moved. Or maybe they've given her a first name somewhere else. Kyletheobald 13:15, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Topo (New Earth) to Topo the Octopus (New Earth) I think this should be done. For one, it would free up the name Topo for Aquaman's (Arthur Curry) sidekick Topo. This way we won't have to add something else to his name like Squidboy. He never really was called anything but Topo. A second reason is that this will bring it in line with other animals such as Frankie the Monkey. Kyletheobald 19:27, December 10, 2009 (UTC) Patrick O'Brian (The Brave and the Bold) to Edward O'Brian (The Brave and the Bold) His actual name is revealed in Batman: The Brave and the Bold: Long Arm of the Law!. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 21:12, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Supernova III to Supernova III (New Earth) The page is missing its reality tag. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 18:54, January 1, 2010 (UTC) X-24 (New Earth) to Rosabelle Mendez (New Earth) Revealed in Booster Gold Vol 2 8. Even though it's an alternate timeline, it seems legit. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC) :There's no precedent for this one, but I'm willing to set it. Alternate timelines have different rules than alternate universes. In this case, the divergent point in the timeline was well into her career. I see no reason why anything revealed to have happened ''before the new timeline started wouldn't be perfectly in continuity. Approved, we'll get a bot to handle the move. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 23:16, January 1, 2010 (UTC) I've been reading (and filling in character data and stuff for) the Titans Hunt story line recently and I just got to the issue where she first appears... if she's going to be moved to Rosabelle Mendez (New Earth), should I tag her as that instead of X-24 (New Earth), or X-24 (New Earth), since it's the present page?J'onn J'onzz 16:10, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :::No, tag her as X-24 right now and the bot will sort it all out. ::::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 16:51, February 15, 2010 (UTC) I say definitely move her to Rosabelle Mendez (New Earth). X-24 is her designation, but not really her name. ZeroSD 23:07, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Imra Ardeen (New Earth) to Imra Ardeen (Earth-Prime) This, along with all the Legion of Super-Heroes character entries listed as New Earth when they are supposed to be Earth-Prime, should be moved. Garth Ranzz (New Earth) to Garth Ranzz (Earth-Prime) As stated above, if it's the Earth-Prime character, it should be listed as so. Legion of Super-Heroes (New Earth) to Legion of Super-Heroes (Earth-Prime) This page should be moved to Earth-Prime, seeing as it's that version of the team. Metal Men to Metal Men (New Earth) Currently, it only has a "See also Metal Men (Earth-9)", but there's more versions of them. They exist in Earth-9, Earth-21, Earth-22 (as Alloy, the Metal Man), Earth-44, The Nail, Justice, DC One Million and BTBATB, and there's Metal Men Vol 1 and Tangent Comics: Metal Men, which, I think, is enough to give them their own disambiguation page. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 08:18, July 6, 2010 (UTC) Mallory Kimbal (New Earth) to Mallory Kimball (New Earth) Because I should've checked before I made that page. Spelled Kimball in Detective Comics #859. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 10:18, July 14, 2010 (UTC) :Done manually. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 10:10, August 27, 2010 (UTC) Doctor Gruener (New Earth) to Benjamin Gruener (New Earth) Revealed in . -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 10:01, July 15, 2010 (UTC) Enrico Inzerillos (New Earth) to Enrico Inzerillo (New Earth) The family is "the Inzerillos", but that's plural. The surname is just Inzerillo. See ''Cry for Blood and Gotham Central. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 11:43, July 18, 2010 (UTC) Jason Troy to Jason Troy (Impact) I think that Jason Troy should be moved to Jason Troy (Impact), not Jason Troy (New Earth). All of the comics listed with Jason Troy appearances are Impact appearances. I'm not sure if he's been introduced in the newest Shield Vol 1 or Web Vol 1 series or not, but that character would be Jason Troy (New Earth), not the one that is currently listed as Jason Troy. I ask that Prof. Zoombot pleases changes all Jason Troy to Jason Troy (Impact). Thanks. Goblyn4evil 22:48, July 28, 2010 (UTC) :I'm cool with that. I originally wanted to put up a move3 template, but decided on New Earth because that's what the new MLJ comics have. The Impact era wasn't that well documented. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 06:25, July 29, 2010 (UTC) :: Done and done. No need for the Zoombot.Goblyn4evil 20:59, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Congo Bill (New Earth) to Bill Glenmorgan (New Earth) Revealed on the very first page of Justice League of America #47 (as "Congo Bill" Glenmorgan). Although I don't know whether it should be Bill or William... -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 19:37, July 29, 2010 (UTC) :I'd go with William, but yeah, sounds good. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 05:57, August 22, 2010 (UTC) Veteran (New Earth) to Nathan Howe (New Earth) Yup. Based on Justice Society of America Vol 3 39, I say, do it! Goblyn4evil 22:06, July 30, 2010 (UTC) Kalel Kent (Earth-One, 2020) to Kalel Kent (Earth-One) There's really no need for the year, seeing as he's the only Earth-One Kalel Kent. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 15:04, August 18, 2010 (UTC) :That's valid. Seconded. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 05:57, August 22, 2010 (UTC) Irik T. Roval (Antimatterverse) to Irik T. Roval (Antimatter Universe) Naming standard. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 16:59, August 22, 2010 (UTC) SBG to Earth-3898 Look Here :Marvel and DC editor, 16:13, August 30, 2010 (UTC) :Agreed. I pointed you in this direction so now, we can ask a bot to do most of the work. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 14:17, August 30, 2010 (UTC) Renegades to Renegades (New Earth) There's Earth-One Renegades too, Freedom Fighters villains. New Renegades also popped up in . Should those be Renegages II (New Earth), or should it be merged with Renegades (Earth-One) and the Future Flash Rogues be moved to Renegades II? -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 22:05, September 7, 2010 (UTC) :How about making the Flash villains Renegades (25th Century). or... what are they, the Reverse-Flash Task Force or something? ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 23:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC) Ace of Clubs (DCAU) to Ace of Clovers (DCAU) This just occurred to me: Ace should actually be at "Ace of Clovers (DCAU)". The "Ace of Clubs (DCAU)" is the robot in ''Batman Beyond. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 21:16, September 9, 2010 (UTC) :Good point, Tupka. (VicGeorge2K9 21:31, September 9, 2010 (UTC)) ::You know, I should really not edit after midnight. I honestly thought "Clubs" meant "Spades". -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 22:31, September 9, 2010 (UTC) Professor Radium (New Earth) to Henry Ross (New Earth) I can't believe this one isn't already done. Anyway, we know his name so it should be moved over. Kyletheobald 20:11, September 11, 2010 (UTC) Sergeant Cayce (New Earth) to William Cayce (New Earth) I think we got ahead of ourselves making this page. His name is revealed in his second appearance, Shield Vol 1 1. Jack of Spades (New Earth) to Jack of Spades III (New Earth) Jack is the only unnamed member of the second gang, however, Jack of Spades I was Hi-Jack (Earth-One), who changed suits from Clubs in . Oh, and Hi-Jack made New Earth appearances too, so he should be moved to Hi-Jack (New Earth). And as you might have noticed, I'm taking the RFG head on at the moment. I'm doing pips first, I'm waiting for a couple of issues coming in and then I'll tackle the Face cards. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 12:27, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Super Friends Vol 2 to DC Super Friends Vol 1 That's the full cover title, and it helps to disambiguate. No more "Bruce Wayne (Super Friends Vol 2)" but rather "Bruce Wayne (DC Super Friends)". -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 18:07, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :That sounds like a great idea. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 19:21, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Royal Flush Gang A lot of move requests in one: * Wanda Weyland (New Earth) to Wanda Wayland (New Earth); originally typoed on creation by Answerguy. * King of Clubs (New Earth) to Kerry (New Earth); not as much a move as it is a merge; all appearances are under KoC. * Queen of Clubs (New Earth) to Queenie (New Earth): she's Q of Clubs I and Spades I * Hi-Jack (Earth-One) to Hi-Jack (New Earth): has appeared post-crisis (though not as Hi-Jack) * Michael Bailey (New Earth) to Michael Bailey (Earth-One): hasn't appeared post-crisis. --'[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 18:18, September 22, 2010 (UTC) Thaal Sinestro (Earth-3898) to Sinestro (Earth-3898) I don't see where he's even called Thaal Sinestro anywhere in ''Superman & Batman: Generations. I say let's move it. Anyone agree? (VicGeorge2K9 19:28, October 1, 2010 (UTC)) :Yeah. Same for Thaal Sinestro (Earth-32). -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 20:42, October 1, 2010 (UTC) John Doe (New Earth) to Rumble (New Earth) Since the name is used for other identity-unknown characters, I'd think it's safe to say this isn't his real name. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:44, October 1, 2010 (UTC) :Manually moved to Rumble II (New Earth) because of Rumble I (New Earth). Updated all the links. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 09:19, November 10, 2010 (UTC) ::You the man. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 16:50, November 10, 2010 (UTC) Wanted Categories We should probably let the bot go through Special:WantedCategories. A lot of them are artists that have pages elsewhere (Bill Ely, George Perez, Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez) or redirected character names ("Bartholomew Allen (Earth-One)/Appearances", "Justice League of America/Appearances", "Alan Scott (Earth-Two)/Appearances", "Jay Garrick (Earth-Two)/Appearances"). Probably need to set up a list first. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 21:47, October 1, 2010 (UTC) (New Frontier) to (Earth-21) The following was taken from Talk: DC: The New Frontier Vol 1: ---- Given the overhaul in updating the DC multiverse, I'm beginning to think of moving the New Frontier characters to Earth-21.--Drgyen 20:21, October 2, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, we probably should. I just prefer we move this by bot since it's obviously more than we have on most other realities. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:31, October 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Then its agree then. I give my consent.--Drgyen 22:21, October 2, 2010 (UTC) :::Somebody should put move tags up on all the characters then talk to Nathan. ::::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 22:15, October 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Can't we let the bot do that? ;P -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 05:43, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ---- Sent a PM to Nathan -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 07:06, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Green Man (New Earth) to Green Man II (New Earth) There was an earlier character called "Green Man", of the Omega Men. They need to be distinguished in some whay, either with Green Man I and II or "of the Omega Men" and "of Sector 2828" or something. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 08:24, October 4, 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure they are different. From what I understand, the planet Green Man comes from doesn't have individuality and the guy broke this custom to take the name Green Man. He joined the GL Corps and, later, Omega Men and was seemingly killed. Then, with the rebirth of the Corps, he reappeared. I believe it was the original and not a second guy. They've treated him as the same character in his appearances in GL vol 4 and it seems unlikely another person from his planet would rebel and also take the Green Man name. Kyletheobald 10:25, October 8, 2010 (UTC) :They're definitely different. The original was killed... the second one is treated as basically the same person because they have no individuality. One of them was exclusively a member of the Omega Men, the other was exclusively a member of the Green Lantern Corps. Here's an image of the original getting slaughtered by Durlans during ''Invasion! ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 17:20, October 9, 2010 (UTC) Sonar II (New Earth) to Sonar III (New Earth) Doom Patrol Vol 2 6 also has a villain named Sonar. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 08:10, October 8, 2010 (UTC) Most Excellent Super Bat (New Earth) to Heino Okata (New Earth Mosexsbat is called Heino in the comics, but Heino Okata in Greg Cox' novelization of Final Crisis (page 53). I couldn't find a precedent for this, but it seems legit to me. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 12:42, October 29, 2010 (UTC) Hel Lokison (New Earth) to Hel (New Earth) Or Hel Lokisdaughter (New Earth)... Hel is a woman, and would not be called "son of Loki". -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 10:50, November 3, 2010 (UTC) Alicia Grissom (Burtonverse) and Eckhardt (Burtonverse) She is listed in the credits as Alicia Hunt and is never actually stated as Carl Grissom's wife, she is infact his mistress so I suggest the page be moved to Alicia Hunt (Burtonverse). (Also incase there was a problem with my movement of Eckhardt (Burtonverse) to Max Eckhardt (Burtonverse) that was because Max is his first name, again from the credits and possibly is even mentioned in the film) -Doomlurker 17:31, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :It's not that there's anything wrong with the suggested moves, far from it. However, all pages on which the article is need to be updated - double redirects need to be fixed, autocategorization needs to be updated. It's just not that simple as pressing the "move" button. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 17:41, November 3, 2010 (UTC) ::If I do this is it ok to move the article? Its just the appearances category that needs changing and the articles putting them as Alicia Hunt (Burtonverse)/Appearances rather than Alicia Grissom (Burtonverse)/Appearances - Doomlurker 19:44, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Yes. As long as you tag categories and pages that are no longer needed with . The category needs to be changed in the template itself, by replacing Alicia Grissom (Burtonverse) with Alicia Hunt (Burtonverse), not by adding Alicia Hunt (Burtonverse)/Appearances to the page. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:00, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Never mind, you already figured it out. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:03, November 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Alicia is ready to be moved, I'm not sure if you want to do it or if I should so I'll leave it unless you say otherwise, I'll start on Eckhardt. And I tagged Alicia Grissom for deletion. - Doomlurker 20:10, November 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::This is all sorted now. - Doomlurker 20:22, November 3, 2010 (UTC) Starrware Labs to Starrware Industries I'm suggesting, that we change this articles name to "Starrware Industries". As it's repeatably given in this name, in Power Girl's title. Starrware Labs is it's main subsidiary. But, there are most likely other subsidiaries. Like Karen Starr's software company Starrware, Inc. (until she sold it) and charitable orginizations, like the Starr Foundation for orphaned children. So, having this article named "Starrware Labs" is like naming the "Wayne Enterprises" article, for "WayneTech" (or any other of it's subsidairies). :I agree. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 21:06, November 21, 2010 (UTC) Goldilocks (New Earth) to Dorothy Leigh (New Earth) Do we have any reference for this name change? I don't remember her ever being named. Kyletheobald 14:49, January 8, 2011 (UTC) Molly Mayne (New Earth) to Molly Maynne (New Earth) Who's Who gives the name two n's, as does the Solomon Grundy miniseries, and every other instance I came across the name. Where does the one n spalling come from? -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 13:22, January 30, 2011 (UTC) It's spelled Molly Mayne in every issue of Infinity Inc. in which she appears. I tend to defer to Roy Thomas when it comes to the Golden Age characters. I've never seen it spelled Molly Maynne. Tony ingram 16:30, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Mademoiselle Marie (New Earth) to Anais Guillot (New Earth) Checkmate Vol 2 21 - 22 rewrites the story of Marie and is given the name Anais Guillot. Though there were a few other women active during the war with the Marie codename, she was the one responsible for all the recorded WWII adventures so there shouldn't be any confusion with moving her. Kyletheobald 14:33, January 31, 2011 (UTC) :Mademoiselle Marie (New Earth) would best be a redirect to Mademoiselle Marie, then. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 14:38, January 31, 2011 (UTC) Merry Pemberton (New Earth) to Meredith Pemberton (New Earth) Full first name revealed in Seven Soldiers: Bulleteer Vol 1 2. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 10:08, February 1, 2011 (UTC) Alan Armstrong (New Earth) to Alan Armstron (Earth-S) Everything on that page is the Earth-S version of the character, and most pages (except Spy Smasher Vol 1) already link to it. Alan Armstrong (New Earth) has, so far, only appeared in Power of Shazam Vol 1, in flashbacks only. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 21:06, February 9, 2011 (UTC) William Perkins (New Earth) to William Perkins (Earth-X) He's a quality character that has made few to no appearances in the DCU. Probably should just be moved over to Earth-X unless anyone has a reason it should stay. Kyletheobald 16:01, February 10, 2011 (UTC) William Perkins is indeed a Quality character, but like a lot of the Quality characters we have listed as Earth-X charactyers, there's no actual evidence in-story that he ever went there. Roy Thomas established in All-Star Squadron thatall the Quality characters were originally from Earth-Two, not Earth-X; the only ones who went to Earth-X were those depicted as moving there in ASS #50, and the Mouthpiece and a lot of the others were not among them. They weren't native to that world. I guess a case might be made for Perkins being an Earth-Two character, but then surely he'd be a New Earth character post-COIE anyway? Tony ingram 16:27, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :Hehe, ASS... um, this seems like a broader issue entirely. We tend to default considering these characters as Earth-X, but that's a very specific choice... most of the established Quality characters aren't officially from Earth-X, and X isn't just a self-contained Quality Comics universe... it's a naziverse, that most of these characters don't seem to be necessarily inhabiting in their older appearances. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 16:34, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Umm, then why default to placing them on Earth-X? Why not Earth-Two, which is where they would logically have originated? It isn't even being used consistently: look at Sandra Knight (Earth-Two), which is at Earth-Two despite being shown as Earth-X on the Phantom Lady disambig page. Tony ingram 16:41, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :::Well, that last example is because even though she's technically ''from Earth-Two she's most commonly associated as an Earth-X character in the DCU. ::::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 19:26, February 10, 2011 (UTC) But they're all technically from Earth-Two! And Sandra Knight in particular made far more appearances as an Earth-Two character (In several years' worth of All-Star Squadron issues) than she ever did as an Earth-X character (in just two issues of JLA and two of COIE). In fact, the Freedom Fighters all appeared more often on Earth-''One'' than they did Earth-X. And there seems no logical reason to place characters like Mouthpiece, William Dunn, Stormy Foster or Brian O'Brien on Earth-X when they were never seen as existing there. Particularly when others, like Black Condor (who did go there) are listed as Earth-Two characters. I don't think there were actually any characters confirmed as originating on Earth-X, in the end. Not after All-Star Squadron #31 and #50. It just seems a totally arbirary designation. Tony ingram 19:45, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :I just wanted to bring up something similar to this as I had noticed it, but my knowledge of ASS isn't that good Tony's. Other than Earth-1, Earth-2 and Earth-S, it's a bit of a mess with the old multiverse. Quality arguably the biggest. Answerguy's and DPeattie's villain articles probably need some tinkering in Earth designations. I mean, Blue Beetle/Dan Garret was originally Fox, but became Earth-Four (though they added an extra T at the end). Phantom Lady's Fox years were Earth-Two, but Dan Garret's Earth-Fox. Kid Eternity was retconned to be Earth-S, though he was Quality at first. I'm pretty sure some of his villains are labeled Earth-X. Luckily there weren't any crossovers in those days, so they still pretty much stand on their own and moving them wouldn't disrupt much. Do we move everything to Earth-Two, a hypothetical Earth-Quality, or are we lazy and keeping it this way? -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 22:06, February 10, 2011 (UTC) In fact, the existence of an 'Earth Quality' was posited more than twenty years ago in the Official COIE Index published by Eclipse, to explain away the post-war stories of various Quality characters like Phantom Lady and Doll Man who would logically have been on Earth-X by then. It made sense to me then, and still does-I think the ewarth-X designation is pretty meaningless since we know at least half the Quality characters didn't originate there and a lot of the original stories couldn't possibly have occurred there (pretty much any story published after Pearl Harbor, in fact). In theory, characters like Wildfire, Bill Dunn and the Clock could all have been and remained on Earth-Two as they were never seen to leave it, or they could have been on the COIE Index compilers' hypothetical 'Earth Q'. Maybe the simplest solution would be to simply place them all on either Earth-Two if they appeared in All-Star Squadron (and had conspicuously different pre-Crisis histories) or New earth if they didn't? Tony ingram 09:17, February 11, 2011 (UTC) :Agreed with that. On a similar note, Earth-X's Blackhawks were said to have been killed in '44 (in ), but Quality published lots of post-war stories. The Silver Age Blackhawks lived on Earth-1, though, as E-1 Superman and Batman showed up once. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 11:26, February 13, 2011 (UTC) Karl Kyle (New Earth) to King of the Cats II (New Earth) :Currently, there are two articles for this character, Karl Kyle (Earth-Two) and Karl Kyle (New Earth). Karl was originally Earth-Two. Though a dead ringer for Karl shows up in , I find it premature to call him Karl and list him as Selina's brother, as her post-Crisis origins and family are completely different. I would, therefore, suggest moving this to King of the Cats II (New Earth). There was another KotC in , but that was apparently Thomas Blake. (Haven't read the issues, so I can't tell for sure) -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 11:26, February 13, 2011 (UTC) I-Ching (Earth-One) to I-Ching (New Earth) He's had post-Crisis appearances. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 15:37, February 20, 2011 (UTC) Ironwolf to Ironwolf (Earth-One) Same as Valcan, this swords and sandals guy is missing a continuity identifier. He's had only three appearances to date. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 22:13, February 20, 2011 (UTC) :Make that four, possibly five appearances. The arguable one might be an ancestor cameoing in Twilight. However, Ironwolf proper appears in a semi-sequel/retelling of the Weird Worlds run, Ironwolf: Fires of the revolution, which '''is' tied to Twilight by virtue of Homer Glint appearing in an extended sequence. Since Twilight manages to mangle such spatiotemporally distinct characters like Tommy Tomorrow, the Space Rovers, Star Hawkins, Manhunter 2070, Space Cabbie and the Space Museum, among others, into one bizarre narrative this is Earth-Chaykin, not Earth-One. --Lucien61 10:21, March 5, 2011 (UTC) :Twilight is an elseworlds story, but that does not mean all the characters in it are exclusive to that universe. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 12:49, March 7, 2011 (UTC) Ernie Chua to Ernie Chan According to the man himself, Chua was something he was stuck with by immigration, his real last name is Chan. The MDP has him listed as "Ernesto Chan", but he goes by Ernie. Currently, his stuff is split up between Chua and Chan, likely due to whatever he used in his signature at the time. : 15:28, February 27, 2011 (UTC) Harm (Dakotaverse) to Edward Pugliese (Dakotaverse) Real name known. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 12:49, March 7, 2011 (UTC) Kirtan-Rhodd (New Earth) and Kirtann Rodd (New Earth) to Kirtan-Rodd (New Earth) Part merge, part move. Kirtan-Rodd is the spelling given in . -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 16:03, March 21, 2011 (UTC) Gaucho (New Earth) to Santiago Vargas (New Earth) Real name given in Batman Inc. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 13:13, March 24, 2011 (UTC) Thor and Loki to New Earth They've appeared post-Crisis, mainly in War of the Gods. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 20:35, March 25, 2011 (UTC) :Adding to that: A lot of Norse gods appeared in Inferior 5 #4, which would make them Earth-Twelve versions... I very much feel making the New Earth articles "Earth-Twelve; Earth-One; New Earth". Move James Olsen (Smallville) to Henry James Olsen (New Earth) Turns out that Smallville Jimmy, now that he's dead, has a kid brother, whose name is also James. And that Big!Jimmy's name is Henry James. Just to make it ''not weird at all. So, if the kid is now officially supposed to grow up to be, well, Jimmy Olsen, may I add my voice to those who call for Big!Jimmy to be officially moved to Henry James Olsen. And then we can get a raise a toast to criminally unimaginative parents everywhere. CaptainKobold 23:22, March 30, 2011 (UTC) :Shouldn't it at least go to Henry James Olsen (Smallville)? Kyletheobald 23:53, March 30, 2011 (UTC) Jonni Thunder Given that almost every appearance Jonni ever made after her initial limited series was post-Crisis and clearly on New Earth, I see no reason why she's still listed as being on Earth-Two. Tony ingram 23:56, March 30, 2011 (UTC) Silver Ghost/Earth-X Also, Raphael Van Zandt has now been established as existing on New Earth. And as far as I can see, pretty much every character currently attributed to Earth-X should in fact be listed as either New Earth or Earth-Two. There's no evidence most of them ever went to Earth-X (excluding those seen migrating there in All-Star Squadron), and pretty much no way most of them could have originated there given that Earh-X was overrun by nazis by 1942 and a lot of the characters in the earth-X category weren't introduced until after that, in adventures set on a conspicuously non Nazi dominated world. Tony ingram 00:19, March 31, 2011 (UTC) :DPeattie and Answerguy both created a lot of villain articles a while back, and added (Earth-X) to Quality characters. They're not "true" Earth-X. Pre-DP/AG Quality characters (and some Fox) are listed as Earth-Two, or Earth-Two (Retcon) (Phantom Girl and Doll Girl mostly). That's where most can go, as far as I'm concerned. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217]] 17:14, March 31, 2011 (UTC) I tend to agree. I'd place them on Earth-Two or, if they've been mentioned since COIE, New Earth. I don't think there's really any such thing as an 'Earth-X' character, except for characters like the Earth-X Martha Roberts. All the actual heroes appear to have migrated from earth-Two. Tony ingram 17:46, March 31, 2011 (UTC) :And three guesses what Martha Roberts is actually called...? -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 18:09, March 31, 2011 (UTC) Well, if we're talking about the Earth-X Martha Roberts (daughter of a civilian sceintist, later murdered by the Nazis), she was called...Martha Roberts! As was the Earth-One version. It was only the Earth-Two/New Earth Martha who was ever Doll Girl. Tony ingram 18:13, March 31, 2011 (UTC) :My brain hurts. And we haven't even talked about continuity trainwreck Blackhawks yet. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 18:33, March 31, 2011 (UTC) Actually, given that Martha has since been mentioned and reported dead in one of the recent freedom fighters mini-series', she should probably be moved to New Earth anyway, and her history updated properly to reflect that. Unless the feeling is that there should be separate entries for the three Martha's? Hmm...Tony ingram 18:35, March 31, 2011 (UTC) :It's almost always preferable to explain it in-universe so people don't have to go to three different pages to get the sstory on what's essentially one character... unless they're completely incompatible with each other like Hugo Strange or someone. Of course, it's always okay to make a main article for the New Earth version and link to priors in their history section. ::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 19:48, March 31, 2011 (UTC) That might be worth doing, then. Either way, Martha is/was definitely a New Earth character now, and the New earth version is essentially indistinguishable from the Earth-Two version so I think a move is in order. The alternate Martha that probably deserves a separate entry would be the Earth-One version, who cropped up in a few places in the '70s. I think the Earth-X version was only seen once, and that was when she died. Tony ingram 21:21, March 31, 2011 (UTC) Whirlicane (Earth-One) Whirlicane's real name was revealed to be Emilo Storn when he reappeared in Superman Vol 1 303. :Moved manually. --'[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217]] 14:56, May 4, 2011 (UTC) Shorty Morgan (Earth-Two) to Samuel Morgan (New Earth) The newspaper obit in calls him "Samuel (Shorty) Morgan". Which also makes him New Earth, as it's a year post-Crisis. -- '[[User:Tupka217|Tupka']][[User talk:Tupka217|217'']] 14:56, May 4, 2011 (UTC)